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Post  MichaelaSJ on Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:42 pm

...of fear and hate, without anyone willing to counter it.

I just watched a brilliant docudrama by Channel 4 Productions call 'Brexit'. It is decidedly a 'Leave' oriented production but underlying the general message of the production is how very, very far the data mongers have gotten up our collective rectums.

The acting is superb with Benedict Cumberbatch playing the 'Leave' protagonist Dominic Cummings. Rory Kinnear plays Craig Oliver, the 'In' counter to Cummings and is not on screen enough.

The first 1:25 minutes is very well acted dialogue and what I mentioned above is about the undercurrents of how an American, Robert Mercer stuck his moneyed finger into the Brexit politic.
Mercer is the Bad Boy of Brexit few in the UK have heard of. A hedge-fund billionaire and one of Trump’s biggest donors, he was a leading financial backer of  Cambridge Analytica and owns the intellectual property (IP) rights to AggregateIQ – two data firms that were employed by the two different Leave campaigns.
https://badboysofbrexit.com/2017/12/22/robert-mercer/
I think Obama's 2008 campaign was really the first national campaign to bring 'big data' to the fore, but I don't believe they dug down into the fine grains of the data so far as to use what their campaign had access to, back then. Now, the big data farms have accumulated orders of magnitude more data than what was available to Obama and Bush/Romney.

Facebook, Instagram, YouTu.be, Twitter and others have all accumulated exa-bytes of data on us, individually and collectively. Analysis firms such as AggregateIQ and Cambridge Analytica buy this data and depending upon their clients need,  come up with algorythms that target customers/voters/news audiences down to the household and individual level. This is the underlying message of the 'Brexit' production and the prodcution details how the data was employed. The 'Leave' crowd was more effective with their data usuage as they elected to think 'outside the box' - if you will. The 'In' crowd was mostly a counter the message type of campaign and ignored the 3 million voters the data miners found that were previously ignored.

If you want an example of what I am describing, sit with a friend in a coffee shop and pull up the same page in Huffpro or Fox News or Yahoo and see if you get the same articles and ads - you likely won't, especially if you are a 'this' and your friend is 'that' politically/economically/socially.

I don't have a horse in Brexit, although I do tend to favor large alliances. In the U.S., our EU is NAFTA and it could be larger if we were to include the entire western hemisphere. We will, someday - but not when there are still Venezuelas and Brazils running amuk with right-wing strong man politics (and the U.S. no longer has a Trump-type president).

If this title, 'Brexit' is available for your view, please watch. Watch all of it simply for the production values, underlying knowledge of the data mongers and the politics of the Brexit referendum. Or, at least record the program and start watching at 1:25. The message beginning at this point will definitely make you sit back and wonder - how did I let this happen. Do I say you, or I, yes because we let the slow drip, drip of fear and hate permeate our respective communities - without doing a fucking thing to stop it.

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If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none. Let him forget there is such a thing as war. If the Government is inefficient, top-heavy, and tax-mad, better it is all those than that people worry over it. Peace, Montag.
Fahrenheit 451
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Post  Celia Eriksson on Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:11 am

Hi Michaela!!!

Well, I may have a look, but tbh I am fed up to the hind teeth of Brexit. The people were given the vote, told the decision would be final and not advisory and they voted out. I voted in btw.

But, those in Westminster are wheedling, conniving and stalling to ensure the will of the people is ignored and I am pretty certain they will not, and likely from the get go knew they would not, allow the withdrawal. The EU is such a big trough for the rich man's club that it would be like Turkey's voting for Christmas. Democracy is dead in the UK and will never be the same again. Parliamentary rules are being broken and the whole system is going to be permanently damaged now.


Celia xx

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Post  MichaelaSJ on Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:35 am

California, and a couple of more states, have a referendum process. It is a mixed bag of good and not so good efforts. The referendum process got us:

Proposition 13 - a reduction in the property tax by over half, permanently putting California's education and other public functions toward the bottom of everyone's list.

Proposition 8 - banning gay marriage: overturned by the California Supreme Court.



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If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none. Let him forget there is such a thing as war. If the Government is inefficient, top-heavy, and tax-mad, better it is all those than that people worry over it. Peace, Montag.
Fahrenheit 451
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Post  Celia Eriksson on Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:47 pm

Yes Michaela, there can be too many referendums. In England we have only had this one for the last 40 years or so. They are the most democratic form of decision making, but should be used sparingly... glad to see the banning Gay marriage one got overturned. Did they actually vote for banning it then, or was it stopped before it went to Californians????

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Post  mariehart1 on Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:40 pm

Referendums work in a system where a written constitution is in place and there there's a recognised process. Just like here in Ireland. Switzerland is another example where referendums work to a degree.

But they are a blunt instrument and as often as not hinder good governance. In Ireland we had several referendums that held this country back for years. Often they were promoted by people with a right wing religious agenda to further their usually accompanied by scare stories appealing to older more conservative people. Only recently referendums like gay marriage and abortion have reversed the trend and reversed the results of previous mistakes.

One of the arguments against a second referendum in Britain is that the it represents the will of the people and another referendum would be a betrayal of the vote. I'm afraid that's nonsense. I'm not sure how more democracy is undemocratic. The people are allowed to change their mind. That's how democracy works. After all you don't vote for one political party and they're in for life.

You are allowed to change your mind once you've become aware of the reality.

Given what the people know now, with serious talk of food and medicine shortages, martial law, job losses and the rest. I wonder is that's what people voted for?

Was that the will of the people?

So after two years of demonstrating total incompetence and the Tories turning on each other and blaming the EU for their stupidity. They have no idea how to go forward and have even now have started to blame us Irish for the problem.

The EU is not one big monolithic state. It's 28 separate countries working together to better everyone in the club. Soon to be 27 of course. Those 27 are not going damage themselves by joining the crazy Brits in their lemming like rush of the cliff edge. Nor are they going to allow one of their members be dragged over the cliff too.

The whole thing was a huge mistake caused by internal Tory divisions and by Prime Minister, Cameron's hubris and complacency and by the complacency of many young possible remain voters who thought politics wasn't important in their lives. Well guess what? It turns out it was important after all. Life changing even.

It's been often said that if the Britain had a referendum to re-instate the death penalty it would be passed by a wide margin. That's exactly why parliament would never allow it to happen. They only allow referendums they think they can win. Didn't work in 2016.

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Post  Celia Eriksson on Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:29 pm

Well, you may well be right about the blunt instrument Marie, for I would prefer the vote did not happen and am quite fed up with the whole thing, I hope we do remain, but am worried what will happen feelings are very high about betrayal.

For the people are the ones that vote MPs to represent their will based upon manifesto, a pledge of what a party will do in an election. The election May called in June 2017, one year after the referendum, the Conservative and Labour parties both agreed to fulfil the wish of the people's vote of 2016.

Many people want this sorted, they don't want another election or a referendum. The BBC and Sky are remainers, like me btw, by default and will publicise the new project fear, martial law, food shortages etc., as they did at the time of the referendum. It is easy to say it's nonsense to say another referendum is a betrayal of wish, especially after the election. Another referendum could go either way and why should anyone take any notice of the result? Shall they make it best of 3, 5, 7?

Now another snap election, with parties clearly showing what they would do, maybe that could work. But I do believe Brexit will not happen anyway and the quicker it goes one way or the other the better. Most of all I'd like the whole thing to go away!!! I do believe if we remain, although democracy here will be forever damaged and there will be huge political problems, remaining is still the best outcome. I'm beginning not to care much though.

Celia xx

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Post  MichaelaSJ on Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:39 pm

One of the points the 'In' crowd was trying to get across on immigration was that 70 million Turks would immigrate to Britain. Well, both sides failed to point out that 70 million is the TOTAL population of Turkey.

I hope the 'crash' doesn't break too many bones - because it will be very difficult to heal those broken bones if you have limited your friends who will be able to help you over the tough times ahead.

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If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none. Let him forget there is such a thing as war. If the Government is inefficient, top-heavy, and tax-mad, better it is all those than that people worry over it. Peace, Montag.
Fahrenheit 451
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Post  mariehart1 on Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:05 pm

Celia, sweetheart, God love you, you've nailed it. I wish to God there were more like you.

The sad truth is that anything we think is irrelevant. We are being dragged by the weight of history. History future in this case.

We in Ireland are very aware of the looming disaster not least because of the inextricable links between us.

It is often said that if Britain catches cold we die of flu.

The morning of the Brexit referendum, I felt the same as the day Diana died, which in itself tells you of the links we have.

It's like war was declared. I feel the tension in my stomach.

I hope it works out.

Honestly if I was around in WW2. I couldn't cope. I get so stressed.

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Post  Celia Eriksson on Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:18 pm

Oh Marie!

Yes! I totally understand, I'd not have gone. I think they are going to prolong it now! Another 11 months of indecision!!! Agony!!!! It's driving me mad!!!! Get it together you overpaid thingybob wotsits in Parliament!!!!!!

Celia xx

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Post  mariehart1 on Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:53 pm

I watched the bizarre and pointless amendment debates in the Commons tonight. The particular amendment that stands out is the one where the PM should reject the 'backstop' and look for 'alternative arrangements'. Hooray, problem solved.

Meanwhile in Europe the word is there are no 'alternative arrangements'. In Ireland there is no alternative arrangement.

You have to to wonder why the self proclaimed 'Mother of parliaments' is so deluded as to think it somehow has the whiphand in this situation.

They are delusional.

The cliff edge is looming closer.

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Post  Celia Eriksson on Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:02 am

Hi Marie!

Yes, I saw some of that...… but I think all those around the border seem to want a soft border. I don't really see any disagreement with that problem with those on the islands, not with the British, Eire or those in the north of Eire, we all want a soft border. So where does the problem lie????? I'll let you have two guesses only, I'm sure my sweet girl, you will realise with one of those, who is truly to blame. One way or another.. now! Get it sorted.... EU is behaving ….. badly!!!

Celia xx

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Post  mariehart1 on Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:09 pm

I respectfully disagree. The EU is protecting one of their own. The EU gave May the agreement she wanted, respecting her so called 'red lines'. The backstop was Britain's idea. The EU hates the backstop. We all hate the backstop. But it's needed because looking at the antics of the right wing of the Tory party who brought us to this moment. We cannot trust them.

This morning a well known Irish radio journalist was scathing about the vote. He wondered if now the Europeans now would back down to the British and throw the Irish, after all a tiny insignificant island off the Western coast of Europe and throw us under the 46A, an iconic Dublin bus route.

Throw us under the bus in fact.

They won't, for once we are protected.

The Tories started this. The Tories need to fix this.

Despite the propaganda, this is not
the EU's fault.

The English are bent on self destruction. God knows why. Maybe they need to do this. Maybe it's a catarthic moment.

Germany, France the USA, Italy and a few others overreached themselves and were punished. England led a charmed life..... until now.

Hubris, I think. Catches up eventually.

BTW: I'm specific about England, not UK or Britain. This is an English thing. More specifically the English Conservative. This is their moment and may be their downfall.

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Post  MichaelaSJ on Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:32 am

Being a Yank, I do not have a dog in this fight, but it seems to me England is cutting its nose off to spite its face.

I don't think the economic capability of the England can stand up to the might of the remainder EU and at some point down the road they will want back in, but the cost will be exorbitant.

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If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none. Let him forget there is such a thing as war. If the Government is inefficient, top-heavy, and tax-mad, better it is all those than that people worry over it. Peace, Montag.
Fahrenheit 451
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Post  mariehart1 on Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:38 pm

Absolutely Michaela, it seems a self inflicted wound inflicted by right wing idealogues.

Apparently the military are preparing for a no deal Brexit. There's talk of martial law and food shortages.

None of it has to happen. All that's needed is an outbreak of common sense. But it seems sorely lacking at the moment.
Crazy times we live in.

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Post  MichaelaSJ on Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:07 pm

I harken back to what happen in California (where I live) when gay marriage was 'approved' by the Cal Supreme Court in 2006.

The major churches, such as the Catholics, Latter Day Saints (Mormons) and other anti-anything bible teachings organizations sought to put a referendum on the ballot in 2008 essentially stating a marriage is between a man and a woman - period. It passed by a wide margin, 7,001,084 to 6,401,482.

The courts, both Federal and State overturned Prop 8, but not until after a lengthy court fight and public opinion has swung in favor of gay marriage. A poll by USA Today shows 67% of those polled are in favor of gay marriage.

So, if the courts had not intervened and if there was a referendum today overturning Prop 8, there would be a hue and cry of how could you overturn my vote that I gave in 2008 and this is totally unfair. But any referendum, today, to overturn the wrongly voted for Prop 8 vote would be overturned.

Again, not being a UK citizen, I can say this with impunity - put BREXIT up for another vote. There has been enough time between the original BREXIT vote and the next vote to gauge public opinion and if the original BREXIT vote is repeated then it is repeated and get on with the blood letting.

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If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none. Let him forget there is such a thing as war. If the Government is inefficient, top-heavy, and tax-mad, better it is all those than that people worry over it. Peace, Montag.
Fahrenheit 451
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Post  Celia Eriksson on Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:23 pm

Marie wrote:There's talk of martial law and food shortages.

Yes, and it is....

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Marie, I still love ya!!!!! Celia xx

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Post  mariehart1 on Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:02 pm

Ha ha Celia, very good.
I hope you're right. I really do.
I fear not.
Love you too.

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Post  Celia Eriksson on Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:51 pm

Yes sweet girl, let's hope it's all sorted soon. It's all every business in Eire, NI and Britain wants to know is wtf is going to happen, which direction are we taking? Strangely though, business is booming underneath the radar, imagine how well it could be doing were that referendum never called in the first place!!!!

Celia xx

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