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Is this the end of democracy

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Post  MichaelaSJ Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:20 pm

I am watching as a MOB, driven by the need for a megalomaniac to feed his ego as his followers have taken over the Capitol Building of the United States of America - the place I have called home for the last 74 years. The Country that I went to war for, the Country where I have raised two children.

What the fuck is happening here. The below image will forever be etched into my memory. It is taken from the floor of the chamber of the House of Representatives and shows the Capitol police with guns drawn, with real bullets pointed at the MOB trying to breach the place where democracy is meant to be heard, by duly elected officials - not by a MOD driven by a fascist, authoritarian whose time has passed.

Is this the end of democracy Democr10

We expect this in Panama, Libya, The Philippine Islands - NOT in the United States.

Shame on us - SHAME ON US!

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"Disobedience in the eyes of any one who has read history is man's original virtue. "—Oscar Wilde.
If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none. Let him forget there is such a thing as war. If the Government is inefficient, top-heavy, and tax-mad, better it is all those than that people worry over it. Peace, Montag.
Fahrenheit 451
“lifelong atheist, not afraid of burning in hell,” Ron Reagan FFRF
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Post  Celia Eriksson Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:50 pm

Hi Miki,

Gosh, the scenes are terrible. I have only just caught up on this, I've been busy drawing. What terrible scenes, I would have thought they would have been stopped well short of the Capitol Building.....

And someone getting shot, pipe bombs, looting, things being stolen!

Hope it settles down without any repeats.....

God Bless the USA.

Celia xx

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Post  Kidagakash Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:41 am

I have been off and on watching this since I got home. This is making a mockery of our country. I don't really give a flying flamingo who is elected this time around. I have things I like and dislike about both of them, but the election is over. This is close to a 50/50 split in the country on who wants what, and only getting worse because a lot of them are beginning to act like children whenever something they don't like happens. throw a tantrum and run to an authority to tell on them. The rest of the world is either laughing at us, or if we are lucky feeling some sympathy for the part of this country that is trying so hard to hold stuff together. Everyone seems to expect things to magically get better like 2020 ending has some magical property to it. The only way things are going to get any better is if people grow the heck up, stop fighting over stupid crap, swallow their damn egos and work together towards our mutual best interests! I don't even know what to say about the capitol building... I watched people burn down the police station in my state capitol on live tv. I saw peaceful protesters that same week being corralled like animals by swat teams. That kind of crap is going on everywhere. I sincerely hope that our country regains its collective sanity before we start firing ak 47s and scud missiles at each other Sad
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Post  Celia Eriksson Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:28 pm

Hi Kidagahash!

Yes it realy is being viewed badly by the ROTW, over here we cannot believe it. We saw something like this in Spain in around 75, but that was to remove a dictator and the army was involved. But, to see this there is strange indeed, the Statue of Liberty must be shedding some tears....

For when G.W. beat Gore with the chad thing in Florida? I can't remember exactly, but I don't recall Gore doing much. Then the way McCain conceded to Obama was also very chivalric. I just hope that this is the end of the silliness, Joe has a job to do and whilst Trump perhaps, maybe, was a better friend to Britain, I hope Joe soon realises who his friends are over the pond.

God bless you all over there, better days in twain!

Celia xx

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Post  MichaelaSJ Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:07 pm

Celia Eriksson wrote:...the Statue of Liberty must be shedding some tears....
I can only hope that the tears most of fellow citizens are now shedding do not weaken our foundations as a Nation and that the new administration finds a way, quickly, to soak up the tears so we can move forward and once more become who we should be.

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"Disobedience in the eyes of any one who has read history is man's original virtue. "—Oscar Wilde.
If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none. Let him forget there is such a thing as war. If the Government is inefficient, top-heavy, and tax-mad, better it is all those than that people worry over it. Peace, Montag.
Fahrenheit 451
“lifelong atheist, not afraid of burning in hell,” Ron Reagan FFRF
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Post  Guest Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:05 am

Like everyone else I watched the footage last night with dismay but without surprise. Trump has been angling for something like this for some time. He sent his 'brownshirts' to the Capitol with the object of a putsch.

He had his collaborators in the house disrupting proceedings and perhaps in his mind the baying mob outside would concentrate the minds of Republicans who haven't fallen in line with his fantasy.

But he miscalculated, his mob invaded the 'people's house' and defiled it. Instead of being acclaimed as the real president he looks like the fascist he is.

There is universal disgust needless to say. He's finished now but the lesson is learned. This is the equivalent of the Munich 'beer hall' putcsh. A failure, but this is not the end.

There are other fascists out there ready to to exploit the 70 plus million who now have a false sense of grievance just like in Germany in the twenties.

So Biden and the Democrats have a job to do. The so called 'Progressives' cannot be allowed to dominate. Four years from now there cannot be a failed Republic ripe for a fascist takeover.

No country is immune to totalitarianism not even the United States.

Lessons from history.




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Post  MichaelaSJ Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:50 am

I consider myself to be a progressive, but a pragmatic progressive.

While I believe in most of what 'The Squad' and their ilk want to move towards, I also recognize that most of our Country wants to go slow.

I would very much hope that Biden/Pelosi/Shumer move us, all of us, towards the center, a center left, but still the center. I agree that if we allow 'The Squad' to stick their fingers into what most of our Country does not want can lead to a resurgence of a Trump like personality and yes, we can and may fall into the clutches of what Germany in the 1930s became. And that would not be good!

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"Disobedience in the eyes of any one who has read history is man's original virtue. "—Oscar Wilde.
If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none. Let him forget there is such a thing as war. If the Government is inefficient, top-heavy, and tax-mad, better it is all those than that people worry over it. Peace, Montag.
Fahrenheit 451
“lifelong atheist, not afraid of burning in hell,” Ron Reagan FFRF
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Post  Guest Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:36 pm

Indeed Michaela. I would be a progressive too. But we need to be realistic and pragmatic. The Republicans right have righ has a point. An overly left wing Democratic party is no more representative than an overly right wing Republican party.

It's un American.

But I do believe the United States needs to to be less

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Is this the end of democracy Empty 'nuf Said

Post  MichaelaSJ Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:27 am

Is this the end of democracy Nufsai11

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"Disobedience in the eyes of any one who has read history is man's original virtue. "—Oscar Wilde.
If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none. Let him forget there is such a thing as war. If the Government is inefficient, top-heavy, and tax-mad, better it is all those than that people worry over it. Peace, Montag.
Fahrenheit 451
“lifelong atheist, not afraid of burning in hell,” Ron Reagan FFRF
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Post  Guest Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:00 am

Currently living with a a notable human rights lawyer, she's somewhat left and it's clear I'm generally a bad taste in her mouth even if I'm married to her sister. I've no idea why because she's LGBT friendly. But doesn't know I'm TG

But, but we connected when we discussed the Capitol attack. We compared it to the beer hall putsch complete with martyr.

We both agreed it isn’t over. The fascists haven't gone away.

News tonight that the FBI is concerned about armed protests are planed in 50 states.

I have to say though that whatever happens I'm confident the US will come through this. A Trump regime will be by nature repressive. How long will that last?


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Post  Celia Eriksson Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:41 am

Hi Marie,

I am confident it will blow over. Perhaps Joe needs not to overdo things. Churchill's last tenure was quite famous for him doing little. He'd come to the conclusion that in peacetime the less government interfered, the less the critics and the people could hang any blame, which is more readily forthcoming than praise, whoever is in power.

Of course, with national emergencies, such as covid, decisions have to be made.... but on the whole, letting a country run itself quite often works well and cannot be construed or accused to be overly left or right wing.

Hooray for Joe!

Celia xx

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Post  Kidagakash Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:43 am

It'll all be okay once people stop freaking out doing dumb sh*t

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Post  Guest Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:39 pm

Celia Eriksson wrote:Hi Marie,

I am confident it will blow over. Perhaps Joe needs not to overdo things. Churchill's last tenure was quite famous for him doing little. He'd come to the conclusion that in peacetime the less government interfered, the less the critics and the people could hang any blame, which is more readily forthcoming than praise, whoever is in power.

Of course, with national emergencies, such as covid, decisions have to be made.... but on the whole, letting a country run itself quite often works well and cannot be construed or accused to be overly left or right wing.

Hooray for Joe!

Celia xx

Indeed Celia although I was watching the Crown tonight it implies that Churchill wasn't entirely with it to the extent the Queen had to administer a dressing down. I have to say I totally admire her. Look how many PM's she's had to tolerate.

Apparently accordng to my boys the Internet thinks she's immortal. If only.

Well if the sleepy Joe moniker is real. Then we're in luck.

But the gun crazies and conspiracy theory nut jobs are still there desperately making the world far more interesting than reality.

74 million Americans voted for a fascist. We can't escape that.

However those 74 million, most of them believe they were defending freedom and believe themselves true patriots. I don't know what it will take to disillusion them.

A war perhaps?

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Post  MichaelaSJ Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:42 pm

mariehart1 wrote:74 million Americans voted for a fascist. We can't escape that.

Sigh!

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"Disobedience in the eyes of any one who has read history is man's original virtue. "—Oscar Wilde.
If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none. Let him forget there is such a thing as war. If the Government is inefficient, top-heavy, and tax-mad, better it is all those than that people worry over it. Peace, Montag.
Fahrenheit 451
“lifelong atheist, not afraid of burning in hell,” Ron Reagan FFRF
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Post  Celia Eriksson Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:27 pm

Hi Miki and Marie,

I would not despair too much, I do believe the Biden tenure will be good. For why? Well, let's start with the fact that Democrats have been playing ball, they are Centre Left. The Republicans have not been so, they have been wrenched right, though perhaps they will revert back to being Centre Right in time.

Now, although Joe is more left than average, with a split senate 50/48 + 2 independents, anything distasteful for the Democrat and Independent Senators from close run states would possibly not pass it would keep things quite level and that will be good for the USA.

A lot of people here want a stable USA and perhaps the Republicans will have an equivalent of the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate, I don't know how that works, at the moment Mitch McConnel is? Perhaps Miki can allude us to how it works, as to who is in charge of the opposition party keeping the President at task?

For in England you have a permanent Leader of the Opposition that will actually as a kind of Heir Apparent, run for Prime Minister after the five year tenure is up. It does not always happen, sometimes they get deselected, but far more often than not they do run after five years bringing the incumbent to task. Does not mean the people will vote them in, but if they do a very good job, show top statesmanship and they probably would.

Which, gives the British people time to know them. Americans have no idea until the year of the election who the alternative might be. For example, Keir Starmer will almost certainly be up against Boris Johnson for election to Prime Minister in around 4 years time and may well win. You don't have a clue who will run in 2024.

Although it is statistically possible other party leaders could become Prime Minister, in practice the UK is also a two party state. I just wonder why there is not one person to hold the incumbent President to task and actually be primed for the job him/herself.

Strange constitution the USA is in actual of factyness. For another example, the Senate. California, population 40 million, gets two Senators as does for example Wyoming, population half a million? Wow!

Anyway, I am sure a year or two down the road the USA will be a better place. Hopefully there will be no need for no less than twenty thousand troops to oversee the 2025 inaugeration....

Celia xx

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Post  MichaelaSJ Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:42 pm

Celia Eriksson wrote:Strange constitution the USA is in actual of factyness. For another example, the Senate. California, population 40 million, gets two Senators as does for example Wyoming, population half a million? Wow!
Not only is there that inequity, but one senator can stop the entire government by simply standing up and threaten to speak in what is known as a filibuster.

It used to be the senator had to actually speak, without break, but the wisdom of the GOP party re-wrote the filibuster rule so that the senator only has to threaten to speak.
_____________________________________________________
We live with the craziness of our Constitution knowing that the smaller states can call for a Constitution Convention and re-write the entire Constitution. Since Wyoming would have as much a voice as California in a Constitutional Convention we could:

    Christianity as the only religion recognized in the United StatesWomen could be relegated to second class citizenshipWhite people could be given a better class standing than other folkLGB....T would be a crime

Just think of the things our Wyoming, Utah, Texas, Alabama could do to what was once the best place to live.

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"Disobedience in the eyes of any one who has read history is man's original virtue. "—Oscar Wilde.
If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none. Let him forget there is such a thing as war. If the Government is inefficient, top-heavy, and tax-mad, better it is all those than that people worry over it. Peace, Montag.
Fahrenheit 451
“lifelong atheist, not afraid of burning in hell,” Ron Reagan FFRF
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Post  Elizabeth Lynn Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:56 am

"{Just think of the things our Wyoming, Utah, Texas, Alabama could do to what was once the best place to live."

Don't leave out bat shit crazy Idaho. The legislature is in session, so get the popcorn and sit back for the Idaho version of Looney Tunes.

~ Liz
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Post  Kidagakash Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:12 pm

Everyone out here is all sketched out because they wanted Trump instead. Personally, I think it'll be fine

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Post  MichaelaSJ Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:50 am

Elizabeth Lynn wrote:Don't leave out bat shit crazy Idaho.  The legislature is in session, so get the popcorn and sit back for the Idaho version of Looney Tunes.~  Liz

Hey girl - good to see you again. Exclamation

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"Disobedience in the eyes of any one who has read history is man's original virtue. "—Oscar Wilde.
If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none. Let him forget there is such a thing as war. If the Government is inefficient, top-heavy, and tax-mad, better it is all those than that people worry over it. Peace, Montag.
Fahrenheit 451
“lifelong atheist, not afraid of burning in hell,” Ron Reagan FFRF
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Post  Celia Eriksson Wed Jan 20, 2021 12:46 pm

Hi eveyone!

Yes, I will second that Liz, always nice to hear from you!!!!

Today is the day..... the day I forecast a very long time ago, due to my superbicacal mysticacal powers! the day Mr. Joe Biden becomes President. It's on live over here and I shall watch it!!!! It's a shame that the Donald won't be there, it is very sad that he feels how he does, but what can you do with someone who cannot accept a result?

Brexit came, after I voted to remain in the EU.... did I go on and on and on about fake results? No, I accepted it and now have embraced it I even promote it now! It has happened and we shall see what happens. If it should go tits up, will I gloat and tell those that voted to leave that I told them so? No! I will be sad..... we have to accept things in life that don't go our way and I wish Donald would.

Anyway, it is a great day and I hope it goes smoothly, a shame the crowds won't be very big, but that is understandable. Good luck Joe!!!

Celia xx


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Post  Guest Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:34 pm

[quote="MichaelaSJ"]
Not only is there that inequity, but one senator can stop the entire government by simply standing up and threaten to speak in what is known as a filibuster.

It used to be the senator had to actually speak, without break, but the wisdom of the GOP party re-wrote the filibuster rule so that the senator only has to threaten to speak.
__________________________________________________[quote]

Interestingly similar tactics were used by the Irish Parliamentary party in the British House of Commons in the 19th century. At the time most Irish people while they wanted independence voted consistently for 'Home Rule' for Ireland. Essentially remaining in the empire but with a local Irish government. Just like Scotland and Wales have now. Needless to say this was consistently blocked by vested interests despite the democratic wishes of a majority of Irish people. Lots of talk about the democratic will of the people but all too often it's only when it suits vested interests.

The Irish parliamentary party began using filibuster tactics to cripple parliament. Long story short it worked and Home Rule was granted starting 1914. A certain event interrupted that process.

I think parliament eventually put in a cut off. But it was quite effective

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Post  MichaelaSJ Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:20 pm

A Senator, Josh Hawley with only two years in office, an instigator of the insurrection on my Capitol two weeks ago Wednesday has indicated he will stand in opposition and attempt to block the nomination of Biden's choice for Homeland Security Chief.

I truly hope that the 50 Democratic Senators, plus the tie breaking vote of VPOTUS Harris get rid of these old and detrimental rules in favor of bringing everything to the floor of the Senate for an up or down vote.

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"Disobedience in the eyes of any one who has read history is man's original virtue. "—Oscar Wilde.
If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none. Let him forget there is such a thing as war. If the Government is inefficient, top-heavy, and tax-mad, better it is all those than that people worry over it. Peace, Montag.
Fahrenheit 451
“lifelong atheist, not afraid of burning in hell,” Ron Reagan FFRF
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Post  Guest Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:14 pm

I'm well aware of Hawley, I suspect his enthusiasm for Trump will wane when he realises his political career might be damaged by his adherence to a lie. My impression of him is that he's an opportunist. When the opportunity changes so will he.



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