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Long, Bloody and Gone!

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Post  MichaelaSJ Tue Aug 31, 2021 3:32 am

Some of you know I am a Vietnam Combat Vet. In 1966 I shot airplanes off an aircraft carrier at North Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, and I undoubtedly helped to kill, innocent mothers and fathers and children of those we shot our weapons at: the Viet Cong, Pathet Lao, Khmer Rouge and North Vietnamese.

I am little troubled by the carnage my participation in the Vietnam War caused. But I am troubled by the implicit permissions those Vietnamese civilians on the ground gave to the NVA, the VC, NVA, Pathet Lao and Khmer Rouge. I will forever be tormented by the need to drop a bomb on a village where my enemy was holed up - and those villages contained women, old men and young children. We didn't know if the enemy forced them to be there or they were supporting our enemy – but they were shooting at us from their houses. They were there hiding our enemy and the enemy shot down 14 aircraft, with 6 MIA and 9 KIA pilots from my ship during my stay off northern Vietnam. Maybe some of the MIA made it to imprisonment, but likely not.

But Vietnam was my war and as ugly and brutal as it was, I will need to shoulder whatever blame I have in disrupting the lives of the Vietnamese, Laoshan and Cambodians my ship and aircraft bombed and strafed. I also share a deep-rooted belief that 58,220 of my fellow servicemen/women died over there without any real or lasting peace.

Simply thinking of a teen-ager named Stephan Montague, who was KIA in 1968 and the younger brother of a good high school Classmate of mine still brings tears to my cheeks - as it does now as I type. Steve was a very good baseball player you will never hear of except here and now.

I was never in favor of our continued engagement in Afghanistan. I supported our initial effort to find Osama bin Laden and rid the Afghanis of the al Qaeda elements who reigned terror on my Country in the form of four passenger jets loads with thousands and thousands of gallons of fuel. But I never supported the ongoing plague my Country; the United Kingdom; Germany; Italy; France; Canada; Poland; Romania; Turkey; Australia; Netherlands; Georgia; Spain; Denmark; Czech Republic let loose upon this backward country that no one can find on a map.

I am watching the World unfurl before me on the news and one pundit when asked about what should happen now?
'When is the best time to plant a tree of peace?'
He replied: '20 years ago!'
We tried that, but the soil of Afghanistan was not a fertile place for peace and as hard as we tried to plant that tree of peace, it didn't grow, or when it did start to take hold, it was ripped out by its roots by corrupt Afghani government officials, local war-lords selling their opium to the World, the Taliban, al Qaeda, and later ISIS.

I am reminded of the UN soldier showing off his wristwatch to a local Taliban leader and of the Taliban telling him:
'You might have a watch, but we have the time'!

But now we are gone - just shy of 20 years since we first decided to help Afghanistan achieve peace. We are dragging our collective tails between our legs much like a dog will do when it must back away from a larger dog. Did we do an admirable job of leaving Afghanistan? No, of couse not? The newsreports may lie, but the images of two Afghanis falling to their deaths from a C-17 as it took off with hundreds of their fellow countryment seeking peace.  Did the Taliban win? Yes! Will we end up opening our purses pouring out billions of our treasure to keep the Taliban from ripping apart a worthless country with their fundalmental Islamic ideologies? Yes, and the purse strings have already been cut with our treasure spilling across this forsaken land.

How perfectly ironic is it for the U.S. to pay the Taliban to keep whoever we can get into the air, from the enemy of the Taliban and Afghanistan - ISIS-K.

But Biden did what this Nation should have done in 2002, leave this miserable place where the only direction for this country is back to the sixth century. Yes, I am troubled by those Afghani who were early on giddy about the U.S. forming a modern democracy in Afghanistan and who then trusted the U.S. to get them out before the Taliban wields it ultra-conservative Islamic sword against the men who stood up to the Taliban, the women who will now have to hide in something called a burka and with girls who will have their books ripped from their hands and the boys who will be forced to recite verbatim, the Koran without ever knowing the good that can be found in that book.

I am nearing the end of my life and I will hopefully never see another war waged by the U.S. But there will always be more wars, some within your life span.

We, homo sapiens, are an awful lot. We allow groups of us tell us that something bad is happening over there, somewhere, and we must put out the fire: but it is never-ending conflagrations that consumes us – robs us of our Children and Treasure. The next time you are given the chance to say ‘nay’ or ‘yay’ to a conflict - stand back and think twice before yelling 'yay'!

I am reminded of the current Congressperson from nearby (to me) Oakland, CA - Rep. Barbara Lee. She was the only member of the U.S. Congress to vote against going to war in Afghanistan in 2001. She caught hell on the local and national broadcasts about Her betrayal in voting no, for Her treason in support of al Qaeda, for Her cowardice in the face of an enemy. I stood together with Her, and I spoke up against what we were planning on doing. My voice was not a popular one, but I still stand behind what I said in 2001 as I do now, in 2021.

It is unlikely we will never have to take on an ‘Axis of Powers’ once more resulting another world war, but if the time ever comes to speak up - DO NOT BE SILENT!

The next time we try to plant a tree of peace - let us all be sure the soil is fertile and there are farmers willing to till their fields.

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"Disobedience in the eyes of any one who has read history is man's original virtue. "—Oscar Wilde.
If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none. Let him forget there is such a thing as war. If the Government is inefficient, top-heavy, and tax-mad, better it is all those than that people worry over it. Peace, Montag.
Fahrenheit 451
“lifelong atheist, not afraid of burning in hell,” Ron Reagan FFRF
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Post  Celia Eriksson Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:42 am

Hi Michaela,

It's hard to top that post...... I agree with you. I do believe the whole venture a waste of lives, money and nothing, sweet nothing has come good of it. The society of Afghanistan is quite different to West European society, (here I include colonised nations such as the USA), both have entirely different values and mors.

Oil and water. Neither should meddle in the affairs of the other, it would be best to live and let live. Not twiddle sticks in a Hornet's nest in a far off garden and then show shock, outrage and horror that the Hornet fly over to your house and sting you!

I cannot imagine how it must have been for you upon a warship Miki, nor being a soldier of war. For one I would be quite useless, I get frit far too easily. But, I do feel for the brave people that do. I support them, whoever they maybe and from wherever they are from, whatever religion, creed or race, I very, very rarely support the motives behind their deployment to war, again, from whoever that may be.

I support all politics of peace, even though sometimes that peace simply has to be gained as it was in the second world war, with very brave allied soldiers, airmen and sailors of good versus sheer evil. As Buffy wrote though, German soldiers 'condemned at Dachau', for it was not their fault for the most, it was the Nazi wankers fault...

As for the Middle East, Afghanistan etc. etc. Leave it alone. And I would hope, in time, that they will leave us alone too and never the twain should meet in war again.

Celia xx

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Long, Bloody and Gone! Mtm  Long, Bloody and Gone! Ancestralnewhomeandrespectednations-2Long, Bloody and Gone! Kickitout                                                          
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Post  Lesley Niyori Tue Aug 31, 2021 2:53 pm

20 years ago, I knew it was going to end up like this.
But that's because I like history.

I grew up reading about how the Russians (then called the Soviet Union), were doing their best to force their politics on Afghanistan. And they made a mess of it too. Before that, the British tried. And failed.

I bet Alexander hated the place too.

The country is geographically a pain. It's not worth much, but it's in the middle of here and there.
The people living there are happy living in a world that doesn't have much use for this century. They didn't have much use for the last century either.

Yep, they gained a free airforce worth of 'stuff'. Which they won't have any real need of. Ideally, they sell it all off while it still works. Because it won't be of real use to them. And they don't have the training or maintenance needs.

When I was in uniform, I didn't expect my opinions to matter much to my platoon leader Smile
But as a civilian opinion, yeah, I get to say "I told ya so" to my government.

I'm glad it's over.

Ya know, on YouTube, you can actually find videos of people posting they are leaving Canada.
LEAVING Canada, not trying to get in. So while I can sympathize with the plight of those wishing to leave Afghanistan, sometimes there's just no pleasing some humans.

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Post  MichaelaSJ Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:18 pm

Lesley Niyori wrote:I grew up reading about how the Russians (then called the Soviet Union), were doing their best to force their politics on Afghanistan. And they made a mess of it too. Before that, the British tried. And failed.

I bet Alexander hated the place too.
Afghanistan is often referred to as the "Place where Empires Die".

Lesley Niyori wrote:
The country is geographically a pain. It's not worth much, ...
Ah, but you are wrong. The amount of rare elements in the Afghani soil rivals all of Africa. Be assured, really assured, that both Russia and China are now bringing their checkbooks to sway the Taliban with hordes of treasure simply to allow the Russian and Chinese to plunder the Afghan's riches.

And the Taliban is way too backwards unsophisticated to realize what would be happening to them is they opt for the Ruble or Yuan.

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"Disobedience in the eyes of any one who has read history is man's original virtue. "—Oscar Wilde.
If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none. Let him forget there is such a thing as war. If the Government is inefficient, top-heavy, and tax-mad, better it is all those than that people worry over it. Peace, Montag.
Fahrenheit 451
“lifelong atheist, not afraid of burning in hell,” Ron Reagan FFRF
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Post  Lesley Niyori Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:11 am

Not sure if the Chinese want Afghani mineral resources, but they do want to buy their way to the Persian gulf.

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Post  Celia Eriksson Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:31 am

Hi Michaela and Bunny,

I am guessing that iron, copper, lithium, rare earth elements, cobalt, bauxite, mercury, uranium and chromium are sought after. The value of them in Afghanistan is estimated to be around £750,000,000,000.00.

Enough? Well, maybe, maybe not. But do please hold that bus!!!!! Did I write the one element that the West really, I mean really, really want to push an agenda bound to fail.... Yes.it sells in spades. Worthwhile jockeying to honeymoon/overthrow any regime?

Oh, the bus has stopped and the penny has dropped. Lithium.

Oh yes, all is quite clear now why Afghanistan is more important now than geographical, strategic position or nay, (though it has that), batteries, battery cars..... oh and battery please, NOT electric!!!!.

Those that quite know me here would imagine, for why I guess they believe the balderdash, I were for battery cars. No! They are a menace, the batteries are very difficult to dispose of and Lithium is drying up!

Hydrogen is the way forward, it is very, very plentiful, less expensive and clean!!!! The collection and tweaking required to make it green and effective is not without our grasp and it really should be the number one priority!

And with the inevitable advancement of other clean fuels, the great battery car plan is doomed to fail and it will, mark my words.

A petrol car is less of a menace over it's lifetime than the construct, charging and disposal of battery cars.

Trust me, I am not a politician...... but if I were, gosh would I make great shakes aplenty!!!!! And as for Afghanistan..... leave it alone! It is little wonder some countries can never develop!

Long, Bloody and Gone! Prezzyme

Celia xx

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Long, Bloody and Gone! Mtm  Long, Bloody and Gone! Ancestralnewhomeandrespectednations-2Long, Bloody and Gone! Kickitout                                                          
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Post  MichaelaSJ Wed Sep 01, 2021 8:54 pm

Bunny - trust me the Chinese want what's underneath Afghanistan.

Celia - Lithium
In June 2010, The New York Times reported that American geologists were conducting ground surveys on dry salt lakes in western Afghanistan believing that large deposits of lithium are located there. These estimates are "based principally on old data, which was gathered mainly by the Soviets during their occupation of Afghanistan from 1979–1989". The US Ministry of Defense estimated the lithium reserves in Afghanistan to amount to the ones in Bolivia and dubbed it as a potential "Saudi-Arabia of lithium". In Cornwall, England, the presence of brine rich in lithium was well-known due to the region's historic mining industry, and private investors have conducted tests to investigate potential lithium extraction in this area.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium#Terrestrial
I think I share your belief that battery cars are more impactful upon the environment than other types of cars.

As for hydrogen powering cars - the issue is not technology, it is cost to procure. Hydrogen does not occur singularly in large quantities. The major source of hydrogen is H2O, and to get the hydrogen it is necessary to use electricity to split the molecule. Unfortunately, it takes more electrical power than the kinetic potential of the released hydrogen.

My ideal scenario would be to have a fusion power plant dedicated to producing hydrogen which can then be transported locally. And to reduce the potential for environment damage, I would further develop thorium as the fuel for the fusion power plant. (There is a good discussion of thorium yays and nays @ https://tinyurl.com/w4p52uyu)

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"Disobedience in the eyes of any one who has read history is man's original virtue. "—Oscar Wilde.
If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none. Let him forget there is such a thing as war. If the Government is inefficient, top-heavy, and tax-mad, better it is all those than that people worry over it. Peace, Montag.
Fahrenheit 451
“lifelong atheist, not afraid of burning in hell,” Ron Reagan FFRF
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Post  Lesley Niyori Wed Sep 01, 2021 8:56 pm

You two may be right.

My one rare trait, is I don't mind being wrong periodically.

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Post  Celia Eriksson Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:19 am

Hi Bunny and Michaela,

It is a very strong personality trait to admit being wrong. You are a very secure minded woman Bunny.

I did actually allude to the fact that the collection of Hydrogen needs tweaking Miki, I knew it was not easy and the performance of the fuel not perfected quite yet. But, battery is far from perfect, yet is being pushed ahead with gusto.

I tried the link Miki, but it did not work, it went 404. It is being tested in Norway, the Thorium is less wasteful than Uranium, isn't it? It is clean power, but it is the waste side that is very worrying. I subscribe to clean fuel, my energy company derives energy from wind and hydro.

Wind now covers 25 per cent of British electric consumption, hydro about 5.

The UK has quite the potential for tidal power too, it has the resource of at least 50 per cent of the whole of Europe's tidal power around it's shores and projects have been proposed and two built, one at Islay already and the other in the Orkneys will obtain the most power, of any worldwide that has ever been built...

....but the cost of them needs to be overcome, for they are very expensive and if only there were a determination to mass produce and utilise this clean resource, could they become cost effective.

Anyway, there is nothing 'new' about battery cars, they have been around for over 100 years, Germany had some in the 1880's.....

The battery car below is from around 1895 and Thomas Eddison stands beside it. Somewhere, in the American soil, these batteries still linger. There will soon be millions of others.

Long, Bloody and Gone! Battcar1895

Now they are messing with our petrol. The ethanyol? is being increased. I don't know much about it, except that luckily Helga can run on it, but all the same I am buying the more expensiver super type petrol which still has 5 per cent of it, instead of the now mandatory 10 per cent that can ruin older cars.

Why? I say again WHY?????? Why mess with it, do they want my beloved Helga off the road so I have to have a battery car? They are going to stop the production of petrol cars too! I shall probably be no longer dancing upon this earth, but all the same..... it's not the way to go!

Keeping older cars going is extremely green. The amount of energy used producing another outweighs the petrol consumption easily.

Celia xx

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Long, Bloody and Gone! Mtm  Long, Bloody and Gone! Ancestralnewhomeandrespectednations-2Long, Bloody and Gone! Kickitout                                                          
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Post  Lesley Niyori Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:49 pm

Just saying, we sometimes don't have the right perspective.

You might want to laugh, but sadly, it's not really funny.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSZgoFyuHC8

This is also a new take on the tech, and might make a difference.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOxIoFNfEsk

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Post  MichaelaSJ Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:42 am

Celia Eriksson wrote:But, battery is far from perfect, yet is being pushed ahead with gusto.
Money follows ease. It is much easier to engineer a battery than to engineer an hydrogen based grid.
It is clean power, but it is the waste side that is very worrying.
Yes, that is a current concern for the thorium reactors. There is no free lunch when it comes to feeding our energy needs.
I subscribe to clean fuel, my energy company derives energy from wind and hydro.
About 4 years ago I put 33 solar panels on my house and last year installed a heat pump obviating the need for natural gas. (I still cook with gas and heat our water with gas, but the cost is minimal.
The UK has quite the potential for tidal power too, it has the resource of at least 50 per cent of the whole of Europe's tidal power around it's shores and projects have been proposed and two built, one at Islay already and the other in the Orkneys will obtain the most power, of any worldwide that has ever been built...
Again, no free lunch. The U.S. and Canada has the highest tiDal flow in the world with the Bay of Fundy in Maine/New Brunswick. These tidal forces need to be reckoned as there are several failed tidal generation projects. The force of the tidal flow rips the equipment apart.
I personally think tidal and wave action can be a significant supplier of energy.

Now they are messing with our petrol. The ethanyol? is being increased.
The problem with ethanol is it made from grain alcohol which is (in the U.S.) made from corn.When they started producing ethanol, the price of corn skyrocketed. The were some many ethanol producers that there was talk of limiting there use of corn. There is something called 'switch grass' than can be used in the process, but there is not much of it available to the market as there is with corn.
Keeping older cars going is extremely green. The amount of energy used producing another outweighs the petrol consumption easily.
But in California, they pay the owner of an older (17 years[?]) to get the car off the road.

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"Disobedience in the eyes of any one who has read history is man's original virtue. "—Oscar Wilde.
If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none. Let him forget there is such a thing as war. If the Government is inefficient, top-heavy, and tax-mad, better it is all those than that people worry over it. Peace, Montag.
Fahrenheit 451
“lifelong atheist, not afraid of burning in hell,” Ron Reagan FFRF
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Post  marci Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:12 am

All technologies are interim.  Interim technologies can get us to a future that's a whole lot less fucked up than the fossil fuel trajectory all the developed nations have been on a long time, with their allegiance to GNP and economic growth.

Electric vehicles are far better than the alternative - this is demonstrated by total cost of operation analyses (energy costs that is) from cradle to grave, so to speak.  Wherein electric spanks everything else by a handy margin even including dirty electric generation regions (I don't live in one of those thankfully).

Beside the point though, people always object to changes in technology.  People always object to change of any sort.  People always object. Hell, they object to my very existence, and it doesn't get any more personal than that...

I've been a hydrogen fan for about the last 40 years and I still am.  I'm an electric car fan and a solar power fan as well, even if I can't quite afford the electric car yet.  Still it's all about the ELECTRIC MOTOR itself not about what stores the energy to make it go. So much more go fast, so much longer life, so much fewer parts to wear out.

If/when direct solar production of hydrogen becomes commercial (it's getting closer, and a lot faster than fusion) all the objections fall away, except perhaps the occasional need to transmit it long distances from production to consumption, though this can be done through existing oil pipelines with an admixture process.

Marci/Lisa (I'll switch over sometime I promise)
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Post  Tara Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:20 pm

marci wrote:All technologies are interim.
...
Beside the point though, people always object to changes in technology.  People always object to change of any sort.  People always object.  Hell, they object to my very existence, and it doesn't get any more personal than that...

Spot on

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Post  MichaelaSJ Sat Sep 04, 2021 2:43 am

I think where Celia was going with her comment on electric vehicles (and I tend to concur) was that when the efficiency of an electric vehicle is brought up - virtually no one talks about the total amount of carbon that was unleashed to make the vehicle if you also include the 'carbon kitchen sink'.

I live within a 20 minute drive of the TESLA plant in Fremont, CA and I can tell you right now, if the 50 year old GM/Toyota plant was not already in place - it would not have been economically feasible for TESLA to have made their first electric car.

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"Disobedience in the eyes of any one who has read history is man's original virtue. "—Oscar Wilde.
If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none. Let him forget there is such a thing as war. If the Government is inefficient, top-heavy, and tax-mad, better it is all those than that people worry over it. Peace, Montag.
Fahrenheit 451
“lifelong atheist, not afraid of burning in hell,” Ron Reagan FFRF
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